Steve Beeber's provocative blog on the rerelease of the Stooge's LP resonates for me as a music appreciator and a Jew. While I can relate to the artistic purging put through in some of early punk's music and musings on the ultimate totalitarium system, there is a certain amount of queasiness that comes, I think from the sometimes irreverant mention of the ultimate unmentionable subject, the Holocaust and the Nazis. However such release is what makes us human and these horrid events are a real part of our human past and perhaps through thought provoking art and music may be better understood and possibly defused. Thank you Beeber for your thuoghts on this topic.

Bongo

stopsstop over analyzing this. Art is art. Anything is fair game.

I never read about this sort of thing but notice it whenever I'm around punks--their iconography is shot through with Nazi or Naziesque paraphernalia like Iron crosses and pointy motorcycle helmets, etc. Most punks are not smart enough to know what any of it means but there is a definate subconscious identification with fascist mythology, ie "freedom" as physical enjoyment and anarchy, rejection of morality, etc. It's certainly no coincidence, as you rightly point out.

If anything's fair game, then so is analyzing . Besides, just because it's art, doesn't mean it can't be explored. I'm an artist (or artiste, depending on your level of French-theorizing affectedness). Hell, I've even got the MFA (Mother Fucking Artiste) to prove it. If you don't want people to "think about" (2nd definition, "analyze") your swastikas, then don't put them on in the first place. Personally, I prefer a nice crudités strategically placed in one's cravat. Not only does it look nice, it's damn tasty!

You're absolutely right that punks, from the beginning, have been drawn to the imagery of the Nazi regime. And, just to honor the request in your subject line, I've gone out and written a book about it. While exploring the role of New York Jewish culture in the beginnings of punk rock, I learned that a preoccupation with WW II and Nazi imagery came naturally to the first generation of Jews to come of age after the Holocaust - just as it did in a different way for the first generation of kids in England to come of age after their country "won the war but lost the peace". The reasoning behind the use of these symbols was often complicated and sometimes contradictory, but in the beginning at least it had an element of Mel Brooks' "Springtime for Hitler" about it. In other words, it was mocking. Of course, when it comes to hijabs and Bat Mitzvahs, you're on your own. I'm not touching that one.

you've made it to my Amazon wish list...just wanted to let you know.

Okay, so the Stooges are back, and maybe with them comes a new flood of Nazi imagery that today's youth doesn't necessarily understand. Are the Stooges a powerful enough force to teach these kids that yeah, the Holocaust DID happen, that it was real, and that the band is actually mocking those images because heck, the Nazis aren't here anymore, but the Jews are?

Or is that too much to expect ANY set of young kids to get before wisdom sets in? Heck, *I* didn't get it until ... oh, about four months ago, myself. And while I wasn't a proud punk, I *was* a pretty devoted Jewish metalhead.

Hard to say if the Stooges will teach a new generation anything about the Holocaust. My guess is that they've long since ditched their swastikas and the rest in favor of more direct political messages or, perhaps, messages that are free of political content altogether. So where does that leave us? Well, we've got Borat out there making anti-Semites look like the moronic fools they are. And then there's our dear friend the Prez of Iran, a man for whom "Springtime for Hitler" seemed presciently written. But what to do with crypto-fascists like our own G.W.B. and his Christian soldiers marching off to make the holy land safe for the Hebrews? Seeing as said Hebrews are merely a stepping stone toward the second coming and they/we will be either converted or plowed under in hellfire and brimstone in the event of that coming I don't think this is any too good. Maybe if the Stooges
 played at the next Republican National Convention that would help. Or if the great Id of Iggy was loosed on the world as a third party candidate; "Put the Funhouse back in the White House -- Vote Ig!" Anyone interested in fundraising?

Punk has been deliberately eliciting violent emotional reactions from its audience longer than I've been alive. Appropriating Nazi symbolism is only one way by which they have accomplished this! I love the music of Siouxsie and the Banshees and Joy Division, but they both have made me cautious of lauding their music because of their almost celebratory use of SS imagery. I think now, more than ever, we need to be vocal about their antics. We need to point out to those who don't see the whole picture that this is powerful and dangerous stuff. I respect The Stooges for their significant place in punk rock history, but I am still leery of those antics. I'm not sure everyone can see through it.

Even if you haven't heard of early punk turned "Jewish Lesbian Foksinger" Phranc, you should still check out her song, "Take Off Your Swastika." She makes the point well, I think, when she sings, "Fascism isn't Anarchy."

Rugalach,

You make a good point when you note that early punk rockers used many methods for shocking their audiences, yet when you highlight Siouxsie and the Banshees and Joy Division, you're on tenuous ground that this was all purely to engender a reaction.

While the half-Jewish Ramones (Tommy and Joey) painted ridiculous (as in ridiculing and absurdist) portraits of a storm troopers in stupors and Nazi schatzis, and the all-Jewish Dictators did the same with songs like "Master Race Rock" and lines like "I knocked 'em dead in Dallas, they didn't know we were Jews," Ms. Sioux was a little more disturbing in singing about "too many Jews" (probably an anti-Semitic reference to Jewish businessmen) and Joy Division's name was way out there on the taste frontier (the "joy divisions" of WW II being made up of female concentration camp inmates forced into "servicing" their guards).

In my book I discuss all of these things -- including self-described "All American Jewish Lesbian Folksinger" Phranc (born Susan Gottlieb) -- and conclude that while both NY-Jewish and post-war English punks both shared a fascination with WW II, in the latter case it was often darker than we might like to believe (though, perhaps just as often it wasn't. Oi bands and Oy bands could sometimes intersect more than you might expect).

Again, if you want more on this, look especially at my chapter on Nazi imagery in punk "The Final Solution to the Final Solution," in which I address the camp approach of many of these bands to the subject of the Holocaust -- an approach I refer to as Concentration Camp.

keep 'em flying,

sb

Hey SB: 

I'm about halfway through _Heebie-Jeebies_ right now. So, I probably should've waited 'til I finished reading it before posting here. Sorry!

I probably should tell you that I've been discussing your book a little bit on this listserv I created and moderate called "Typical Girls: Women in Punk/Post-Punk/Underground Music (Circa 1975-80s)." Guess which chapter was discussed?

More info is here: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/typicalgirls

Alan Metz is a member of the listserv and he said you seemed to be "open to suggestions." Sharon Cheslow is a member, as well.

Hey Rugalach,

Thanks for alerting me to your listserv and for discussing my book at such length. I'm really happy to see that it's caused a back and forth among some of its readers. That's exactly what I was hoping would happen, and it's nice to know I wasn't just dreaming like some junky nodding out in his coffee.

I'll try to log in to the listserv and answer some of the inquiries directly there, but just as a general answer to some of the questions I saw, the reason I focused on the performers I did is that they were there at the beginning in the NY scene, which was the focus of my book, even if I did try to show its influence on later scenes such as Riot Grrrl and the indie movement, which is still with us.

Oh yes, one other thing. In my book, I try to stress that what interests me is the Jewish cultural background of the performers in question, not any religious background that may or may not have been a part of their lives. As a result, Ari Up of The Slits might still have had some exposure to Jewish culture even if she wasn't raised religiously as a Jew. In fact, many Jews in both England and America were not religious, preferring to think of themselves as culturally Jewish, much as someone from Italy might think of him or herself as Italian whether or not he or she also identifies as a Catholic.

Anyway, don't want to bore you to tears with this. Perhaps best to wrap up by saying that I personally think of myself as a Marxist Jew -- a Marx Brothers Marxist, that is. In many ways, Groucho et al are the perfect representatives of a form of Jewish culture that still thrives in varying degrees today. Oh, and let's not forget that patron saint of punk, Lenny (Leonard Alfred Schneider) Bruce. If the Marx Brothers are God, then surely he's the son who also went into the business.

Gabba gabba chey,

sb

Hey SB:

I'm so glad you took the time to write the book. I've thoroughly enjoyed the discussions it has triggered. If you've read my essay in _Yentl's Revenge_,  then you've seen how I'm completely on the same page with ya (re: being united as Jewish in a cultural yet secular way)!

Also, if you wrote a sequel to _Heebie-Jeebies_ about the next generation of punks (indie rockers), I think you'd find a lot of material to work with!

-Dina (rugalach)

Hey Dina,

Thanks again. And, yes, I read your essay and others in "Yentl's Revenge". It was a great collection and you're absolutely right that we're in agreement about the secular/cultural nature of Jewishness as opposed to Judaism (though, admittedly, there is some overlap, as in the notion of Tikkun Olam or Heal the World).

I particularly liked how you discussed the complicated nature of identity and the inability (and undesirability) of ever being able to capture such through a label. I hope the complicated nature of so-called Jewish identity came though in my book as well. While I think there were definitely shared experiences and attitudes in NY Jewish youth culture of the 1970s, there were also many different ways of reacting to or interpreting these. It's all too complicated to discuss here, but suffice it to say that any group that can include both Joey Ramone (Jeffry Hyman) and Handsome Dick Manitoba (Richard Blum) is one that allows a certain leeway in self-definition (although I would point out at the same time that the stick-figure lead singer of The Ramones and the professional wrestler "secret weapon" of The Dictators both shared a smart ass, witty, ironic attitude that unites them despite their different physiques and approaches to physical strength -- in fact, the two were good friends for most of their lives).

Now, regarding the idea of a book about Jews in indie rock, it's definitely a possibility. In fact, if any publishers would like to approach me now with large cashier's checks ready for deposit, I would be willing to consider their pleading offers. Let's wait till later though to talk about the large number of Jews in Israeli punk.

Rock on!

sb

The World War II made a very serious attitude out of the elders who had fought in it. The children in the sixties were the children of these veterans and what better way to piss them off then wear swastika's and assimilate some of the nazi shit? Punk hasn't never been serious. Wise up! It's all just about pissing off your parents, just like the ORIGINAL skinheads who weren't racist.

Sure, it was rebellion pure and simple -- in part. And yet, whenever you've got a bunch of punks wearing swastikas, especially Jewish punks, everything stops being pure and simple pretty quickly. I'd ask first which punk scene you're talking about -- England? NYC? Los Angeles? DC? Then I'd ask what you make of bands like Skrewdriver and fans like the openly anti-Semitic skinheads who joined the National Front (England's fascist political party). If everyone wanted to piss off their parents, why didn't they wear the Hammer and Sickle of the Soviet Union? Or the Red Star of Communist China? Or the Stars & Bars of the Confederacy and racist "state's rights" sorts? Think about it.

I have often heard the argument of rebellion used countless times as an excuse for the paraphernalia worn by early punks. While I do believe that it is a plausible argument, the truth of it only goes so far. I believe that the irony of it was not understood by most of the scensters who considered themselves punk because they were not fully aware of the history. For example, the swastika was regarded as a symbol of luck used all around the world (even incorporated into some early American uniforms) before the Nazi's "adopted" it and changed it into the symbol of fear and hatred that we associate it with today. Personally, I feel the Nazi's usage of it is far more ironic than any of the uses it has had in punk history. It certainly is a mystery why the Jewish punks felt necessary to use it, especially with all the horror that it represented for their ancestors (and what could have been for them without US intereference in the war) but I guess it could be compared to the usage of the "N" word in hip hop culture and how hip hop tries to turn the irony on history by using it as a part of everyday language and music.

I think the hip-hop/N Word analogy is a good one. Just as Jews today can use the H Word (Heeb) in ironic declaration of their own pride, so Jews of the punk era could appropriate the symbols of Nazi Germany for largely comedic purposes. What, after all, would the Fuhrer have said had he known that one day NY Heeb Chris Stein of Blondie would be collecting his symbols for kitsch value. As Stein's paramour, the lovely Debbie Harry told me, "it meant [Chris] had won, the Jews had won." Just look at Mel Brooks and the Springtime for Hitler section of the 1968 film "The Producers." If the swastikas worn by the Hippie Hitler weren't for laughs, I don't know what was. Of course, some punks were using the symbols for other means, especially once the Neo Nazi bands like Skrewdriver appeared in England. And others weren't always aware of the power those symbols had to their victims -- take Ohio natives The Dead Boys, for instance, who only took off their swastikas once Holocaust survivor Genya Ravan -- their producer -- told them she'd walk out of the studio if they didn't. Genya was a Lower East Side raised rocker in the Janis Joplin mode before becoming a fixture on the CBGB's scene, but perhaps she didn't see the joke in those symbols. Then again, she was from a slightly earlier generation, one that wasn't ready to look back in irony as much as anger at the crimes of the past. She wasn't a punk in the truest sense of the world. It took those post-modern rockers raised on the teat of irony in the shadow of the Holocaust to rip it up and start again. As Lenny Bruce explained when he used the N Word on stage, he meant through repetition to rob it of its meaning so that no black kid would ever have to go home crying again because he was called that. Same goes for Heebs. And swastikas. If we shine a light on the monster under the bed, he doesn't seem so scary. Especially when we mock him.

I agree wholeheartedly with you Steven. On the other hand, I believe the usage of the Nazi asthetic in punk music sort of added to its demise. While the irony of it made the music popular decades ago, a punk band today would certainly catch a lot of heat for using that kind of imagery. Today, punk has been packaged up into a "pc" form "bubblegum angst" and the original rebellion has disappeared (in America at least). If a self-proclaimed "punk" band like Greenday were to wear swastikas onstage, it would turn into a media storm and probably end their careers. I guess that brings up the issue of the conservative times we live in where mocking history just isn't an excuse anymore.

Hi Mona, Interesting comments. I think you're absolutely right that swastikas and other Nazi symbols would be met with much less acceptance today (and they weren't met with THAT much even in the early days of punk). While you're probably right that our conservative times have something to do with this, I think the extremist political situation around the globe carries equal, if not greater, weight. Mocking the historical oppression of the Nazis (while also bringing its effects "out of the closet") were possible in the liberal climate in which punk emerged, but in the radicalized ones in which we live, Anti-Semitism seems far from a distant memory. After all, when Iran declares that the Holocaust is a myth, it becomes much harder for Jews and their friends to point out the irony that the Nazis' legacy is now one that can be laughed at.   So here's what I suggest. Every decent-thinking person in the world start creating cartoons mocking the myth of the myth of the Holocaust. Then we'll stage a contest to see which one is best. If we're lucky, the irony of demagogues justifying their empty rage by whitewashing the infamy of other demagogues will become apparent. Just be sure to leave the swastikas -- and Mohammed -- out of it. We don't need to make this more complicated than necessary. Sieg heil! sb

You know, you have a great idea. I'm going to spread that idea and maybe it might go somewhere. Anything is possible these days.

Seriously, no book about this. Do YOU know what it means? An Iron Cross is not a nazi-symbol, it's a military symbol, that people got when they were brave in war. The swastika isn't a nazi-symbol either, they took it yes, but the swastika goes back to the Greeks and maybe even further. Not knowing hasn't got anything to do with smartness, that's knowledge. You can discuss the usage of fascistic memorablia over and over, but it all comes down to one thing, to shock the mass.

ever hear of irony?

Hey Anonymous,

Are you the same "anonymous" who sent the October 29th post about swastikas originating before the Nazis? If so, that comment, and your recent one, undermine your arguments more than they support them. I mean, come on; lots of people know that the swastika predated the Nazis, but do you really honestly believe that using it today is not intended to call the Nazis to mind? Otherwise what would be so shocking about it? You say it originated with the Greeks -- well I'm shocked, SHOCKED, to realize that the Stooges were actually trying to call to mind the ancient warriors of Sparta and the intellectuals of Athens. Who knew that they were so insidiously clever as to bypass us all with this knowledge and leave us gasping on the irony of it all in their wake?

And while we're on the subject of irony, two things: 1, it's strange that you should ask whether I've ever heard of irony when my entire discussion of Jewish punk is predicated on the idea that the punks were being ironic; and 2, it's also ironic that someone who likes to dismiss the ideas of others should hide behind a mask of anonymity rather than come out from behind the veil and speak up like a (wo)man.

Yours,

Captain Irony