Wicca and Other Fake Religions

You don't have "issues" with Wicca...you have Jewish impulses!

Wicca is neo-paganism...Judaism take a very dim view of paganism, with its child-sacrifice and temple-prostitution. Wicca folk try to candy coat that history and pretend that pagans were always fun loving feminists. Oy.

Didn't Judaism once have temple prostitutes? 

From a legal perspective, I think Wicca deserves the same respect as other religions. True, it's a new faith, but it has a sufficiently large number of followers (who don't get bilked out of their money or freedom, unlike in some groups) that civil society should recognize it as a religion, as opposed to a cult, fad, or medieval dress-up game.

From a personal perspective...yeah, Wicca's not my cup of tea either. It's not just because I believe in one God, rather than a god-and-goddess. It's that Wicca lacks the same quality that I wrote about in last weekend's comment about Jewish Renewal: a solid intellectual basis. Unlike Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus, Wiccans don't have a tradition of sacred texts to study, debate, or extend by writing commentaries and other works. In fact, many Wiccans (though a smaller percentage than there used to be) have a strong anti-intellectual bias.** These practitioners claim, for example, that their religion goes back to the Stone Age (try 1950s England), or that up to nine million witches were murdered during the "Burning Times" (try 50,000 according to most historians' estimates). Some get red in the face if anyone, even another Wiccan, tells them otherwise.

The other thing that strikes me about Wicca is that, despite the existence of covens for group ritual and celebration, most self-identified Wiccans are apparently "solitaires," as they call themselves. They saw a TV show or picked up a book by Starhawk and started casting spells or doing other rituals on their own. While that's not the worst thing in the world, I think that history's most successful religions have always emphasized community and mutual responsibility. This reinforces one's faith and makes it less likely one will lose interest and move on to something else. Religious communities also provide continuity from one generation to another.

**Not that I have any bias, of course. (joking)

Judaism, as far as anyone knows, never had temple prostitutes.  In fact, the Torah has laws against such practices, for example, "No Israelite woman shall be a cult prostitute (kadeshah), nor shall any Israelite man be a cult prostitute (kadesh)."  (Deuteronomy 23:18)  The closest we get in the Bible to this practice amongst Israelites is Tamar, Judah's daughter-in-law, posing as a cult prostitute so that Judah, in having sex with her, will fulfill the duty of levirate marriage after her two husbands died without leaving her children (Genesis 38:14-26).  I should also mention that today many biblical scholars claim there's no evidence even for Canaanite cult prostitution, but that's grist for another mill.

Make no mistake about it...ancient Judaism recoiled significantly from the excessively evil practices of paganism. Child sacrifice is just the tip of that dark iceberg.

The term "Temple Prostitution" barely captures the utter exploitation of girls & women that paganism embraced. These prostitutes were the way pagan temples raised money...young [exceedingly young] girls served as lures to attract customers to leave donations after committing child sexual abuse. I would call that "institutionalized rape."

It is a travesty that people such as "Starhawk" can whitewash paganism as a matriarchy and call Judaism a 'patriarchy which shuned the goddess.'

G*d save us from such nonsense. Do they really think these youngsters volunteered to serve there?

Judith Antonelli's book "In the Image of God: Feminist Commentary on the Torah" goes into some depth on this...

Warmly,
BB

Can any of you scholars explain to me what in the world you mean by "pagan"? The intolerance and ethnocentrism you demonstrate here is shocking. All I can say is SHAME ON YOU! The Jewish people have known some of the worst intolerance in the world. They've been chased across the continents, when they have not run fast enough, they've been shoved into ovens--alive. This makes the ethnocentrism you and the commenters demonstrate all the more shocking. For your information: I know lots of pagans, and none of them sacrifice children! Come on, surely you realize that labeling people different than yourselves as "child killers" is about the oldest propaganda in the book! In fact, you should recall that Jews were labeled "child killers" in the Middle Ages, and this was one of the many reasons to burn and persecute them--just like was done to witches. It's sure sad to see so many of you "monotheists" are at each other's throats these days. I don't need your postings to prove it, all I have to do is read the papers, browse the web, or listen to the news. When you've not had enough fun shooting, torturing, or blowing up each other, you spend the rest of your time destroying the earth itself. Maybe if Pagans and Wiccans did these things, you'd take us more "seriously"! Is that what you are saying? Frankly, I am glad our religion is new. We get to see it be born, help write it, and be part of that birth. That way, we won't be saddled with all the hideousness and bad karma monotheism has to deal with.

Respectfully,
Gene

Dear Gene,

I'm so glad you wrote in, and may I say that I think it's really important to hear from Jews practicing other faiths. We've had an ongoing conversation here about how much cultural Judaism is broadening religiously, and we don't hear enough first hand experiences.

May I offer my apologies on what you feel as an affront to your faith. Please understand that my goal (one of them) with faithhacker is to be honest about my own (and our) negative impulses... the weaknesses our community has. I think that political correctness without sincerity is dangerous, and in this post I was trying to honestly convey my own reaction, and my own thoughts on that reaction. Jews are just as guilty of predjudice as anyone else, and the bullshit we spew about inclusivity makes me angry. Our grandparents are largely racist. OUr frat-boys are sometimes date rapists. If we pretend we're perfect because we've survived atrocities, we're lying. And I'd imagine you have your own impulses... I'd imagine you have stereotypes of evangelical Christians, or Communists, or whatev. I'm just trying to be honest (and apologetic at the same time).

As for our commenters, please go back and re-read. I hope you'll find that (right or wrong) nobody has suggested that contemporary Pagans are into human sacrifice. People are discussing history, and the history of Paganism is, as all histories are, a mixed bag.

Respectfully,
Laurel

Just as today's pagans rightly take exception to being lumped in with ancient child-sacrificers, I as a monotheist take exception to being lumped in with the minority of extremists engaged in "shooting, torturing, or blowing up each other."  I, and the majority of believers in one God, have never done any of the above and don't plan on ever doing so.

Gene, remember that religious tolerance and mutual respect works both ways. 

Anonymous said:

Judaism take a very dim view of paganism, with its child-sacrifice and temple-prostitution. Wicca folk try to candy coat that history and pretend that pagans were always fun loving feminists.

And of course we know that the ancient Pagans all did these terrible things, because ancient Jewish writers said they did. Just like we know that medieval Jews commited equal atrocities, because Medieval Christian writers recorded all the details for us. I'm sure both sources are equally reliable...(/sarcasm)

That last anonymous comment was me, Mike, and my blog is at http://chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com

No one accused modern Wicca folks of sacrificing children...just lying about the history of paganism.

BB

Dear Laurel:

Thank you for your response. It's great that you created a space such as this for such relevant dialog. Thanx for pointing out that any religion cannot be entirely blamed for shortcomings that stem from human behavior. Throughout history, humans have been cruel to humans, and no race or creed holds exclusivity to atrocity. Yeah, there's enough blame to go around.

You certainly did not intend it, but the denial of "seriousness" is a favorite charge often made by an oppressor or dominant culture against a minority. Good examples of this can be found in the history of music, where new art forms (such as Jazz in the not too distant past, and Rap more recently) were attacked as serious , or "not really music" by established musicians. Science fiction, even up until the 1980's, was often derided as 'low-brow', and not serious literature. So, I know you can appreciate such a comment can illicit a strong reaction, especially in regards to someone's deeply held beliefs. OTOH, it may come as a surprise to you that there is a branch of Neo-Paganism called the Discordians, who have taken it upon themselves to be the Monty Pythons of the group. Yes, we make fun of ourselves, and humor is a part of Wicca. This is a good reality check, as it always helps to have someone slip a woopie cushion under your fat arse when you start taking yourself too seriously.

As you suggested, I looked through the comments again. Heh, I get the feeling my POV has not been well represented. :) I am a Wiccan. I've been a Solitary for just over two years. I recently started working with a Coven, and had the honor of being asked to act as High Priest for one of our Sabbats (I was nervous as hell and flubbed a few of my lines, but it was the thought that counts. Heh! Discordians, please note that!) I'd like to take the time to respond to some of the comments made by your posters. Please understand that none of my comments are meant as an attack on anyone. I would never attack the sincerity of your beliefs, the power of your spirit, or the rightness of your chosen path.

Before beginning, I'd like to point out that Wicca is a nature or earth based religion. My understanding is that the Bible takes a terribly dim view of nature-based belief systems. I'm sorry to say that even a cursory reading of the posts here confirms that impression. (Please anyone, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.) Also keep in mind that Wiccan's are not obsessed with literal interpretations of what was intended as metaphor. Most of us believe such attitudes suck the spirituality out of religion.

It's very true that what we now call "Wicca" came about in the 1950s. (However, there is also scant evidence that something very much like it dates from the late 1800's.) Contrary to what was posted, few people argue that anymore. However, Wicca is divided into many "traditions", some of which do indeed date to antiquity. For example, Celtic and Greco-Roman traditions are very popular among Wiccans. I'm an Isinian (I'm attracted Ancient Egyptian spirituality, and focus primarily on the mythology of Isis). Such religions go back thousands of years. The Italian form of witchcraft known as Straga, also practiced by many Wiccans, is at least a few hundred years old. Unfortunately, for many of these traditions, little has been recorded of how such ancient religions were actually practiced, and a great deal of research and ingenuity goes into reinventing them. Sadly, much of what has been labeled as "Paganism" was recorded by the conquerors, who had a vested interest in demonizing those they despised, oppressed, converted at sword point, or exterminated. Frankly, modern Neo-Paganism bears virtually no resemblance to what can be found in the Bible. Forgive me for being so direct, but I have a feeling even ancient Paganism was a far cry from what was depicted in those sacred texts.

The statement that Wiccans and Neo-Pagans are not scientifically literate is factually wrong. I suggest the commenter reads Margot Adler's book "Drawing Down the Moon", where she surveyed the beliefs and ideas of Wiccans. (Most of her work was undertaken in the 1970s to the 1980s). It turns out we count among our number a disproportionally large share of scientists and technicians. In fact, one of the reasons Wicca is growing exponentially is that it does not have as much trouble with scientific truths as some religions do.

Why does one need ancient moldy worm-eaten texts, written thousands of years ago, plus dogmas approaching fossilization, to prop up one's faith? I find the newness of Wicca most liberating. In addition, there's no central authority, standing over our shoulders ready to excommunicate anyone for not believing the right way. Frankly, I am very done with crap like that.

That brings me to Starhawk. Lots of people like her, and follow her form of Wicca. Others do not. Much of her contributions came in the early days of Wicca, and they are significant. She focused primarily on rebuilding the character of women whose lives had been shattered through abuse. She has been through a great deal, herself. She has been instrumental in helping women reclaim their voices. Women have a powerful and central role in Wicca. Some early branches of Wicca had an even stronger female centric element than they do today, and some covens were strictly female. This was a reaction to what many thought a pathologically misogynistic culture. Frankly, I'm not threatened by that. If some women feel more comfortable among themselves, and want to share things among themselves, and because of their histories feel uncomfortable having men around at such times--well, why should that piss me off? More power to them, I wish them luck, and I'll do what I can to help them--if I have the honor of being asked. In the last few years, I'm pretty sure the "Dianic" covens have shrunk in number. The majority of Covens now have male and female members, and speaking most generally as I can, male and female aspects of diety are usually acknowledged.

Wicca is not faith based. Nothing someone says or has written is Gospel. There's no litmus test. You can slam Starhawk all you want, but it has no effect on Wicca. Wicca is based more on what you do and how you act. We feel the earth is sacred, celebrate the Sabbats, and pledge to harm none. That's pretty much it in a nutshell. I think protecting the earth is a serious thing, and something we can all agree on.

Warm regards,
Gene

BB said:

No one accused modern Wicca folks of sacrificing children...just lying about the history of paganism.

The Wingnuts who believe in Zionist Conspiracies would claim that _you're_ lying about the history of Judaism.

-Mike

Gene,

Thank you so much for posting this. To be honest, I know very little about Wicca, and what I do know I learned from uber-flaky friends on Dead Tour. This is very helpful.

I think one problem facing Wicca (in terms of being taken seriously) has to do with the fact that it tends to share a demographic with the D&D, Ren Fest crowd. By this I mean no disrespect to dungeonmasters everywhere... but if someone is "into" playing a half-elf cleric late at night at the state park, and that same person professes to a belief that also involves dressing up and going into the woods... it becomes hard to separate the play-acting from the belief system. Does that make sense? Everybody I knew in college who was a Wiccan was more about costumes and pot than they were about Pagan history and text (at least outwardly). Which, for a Jew, is hard to understand as "religion"... I've never known a Wiccan who didn't have a lot of velvet hats and silver jewelry (admittedly, this is another kind of prejudice, but I think it's more relevant-- I don't care what someone wears, but the amount of energy they put into their costume can put me off, be they Hasid or Wiccan)

I'm not saying this, please understand, in defense of my bad impulse, or as a legitimate criticism, but to show you *how* the intolerance gets built in me (and maybe others). Just as there are a lot of dumb Jews or Christians, there are a lot of dumb Wiccans... but the dumb Jews aren't wearing capes and bells and telling me about how I should join the Rainbow family. And the infrastructure and long/publicized history/seriousness of Judaism can counteract what a few wingnuts are doing on their own.

Finally, I think Wicca (like Judaism) draws a lot of people I'll call "Seekers" which is both good and bad (for everyone). But I tend to react strongly to people like this, who are trying on religions and philosophies one after another, in search of instant meaning (and community). I don't know why, but it bugs me, and such people make me uncomfortable. They also tend to be loud.

All this aside... meeting a Wiccan who can talk about it like you do have here is helpful, and does much to counteract the bells and velvet. Thank you!

Just as there are a lot of dumb Jews or Christians, there are a lot of dumb Wiccans... but the dumb Jews aren't wearing capes and bells and telling me about how I should join the Rainbow family.

To be fair, Laurel, the Lubavitchers and Aish HaTorah folks, while they may not wear "capes and bells," do wear the clothing of eighteenth-century Polish aristocracy, even in 100° F weather.  And while they don't tell other Jews about how we should join the "Rainbow family," they do tell us about how we should join their respective haredi families.  The Lubavitchers even do outreach on public streets, which is more brazen than what I've seen even the flakiest of Wiccans do.

Michael,

This is true, and I actually said something to that effect above... but it's also true that I don't run into those types of Jews in my social life. I didn't know them in college, and the level of commitment they've made to their lifestyle is NOT something I find hard considering "serious". It's many things, many things I have trouble with on many levels. But I don't doubt the seriousness of their Judaism, as I doubt the seriousness of my old roommate who called herself a Wiccan one minute, a Unitarian the next, a Quaker the next... and most of all just liked to burn candles.

Most of all, I'm NOT trying to make a claim (on any level) that there aren't serious Wiccans who happen to wear bells and capes. I'm just trying to illustrate that I, in the secular world, meet a LOT of people I think are silly. Some of them wear bells. Of the ones who wear bells, some are Wiccans.

And that's how we build a stereotype.

This was an interesting read.

Laurel, I hope that you have accepted that your issue isn't really with Wiccans. Its with people in general. Well, ren-fair people at least. Honestly, I'm a witch, and I don't much care for them either. They tend to smell. Not a fan of that.

I will say that I worship in my own way. Just as some Jews don't go to synagogue or have the long sideburns, I don't ring a bell, burn incense, and chant in some dead language....

I think I just reminded myself of my first Catholic mass...

Anyways. We're on the same page with these flakes. And I sincerely apologize that those are the only Wiccans you've ever met.

By the way, Stereotypes exist because they hold some truth, actually a LOT of it. And I revel in that fact to the fullest.

Thanx for an interesting response.

RenFairs, D&D and The Dead! Some pretty obsessive fan-bases! Heh! I don't think the Dead had a big Wiccan following. Their iconography is straight-up Judeo-Christian, even some of their songs coming from Biblical scripture (such as 'Samson and Delilah', 'My Brother Esau'). I'm clueless what's up with the Rainbow Family, but a friend who attended a gatherings a years ago said it had a distinctly Christian flare. As to RenFairs--guilty as charged! However, it shouldn't be hard to imagine Pagans finding such environments attractive, with all the tarot readings, astrologers, jewelry, period crafts. Personally, I don't view dressing up or indulging in harmless fantasy much of a spiritual or character flaw. Heh! It's actually imaginative and artful, IMHO. I happen to take VERY SERIOUSLY a beautiful Goddess, standing before me in knee high leather boots, sporting a blood-red custom fitted/boned corset, with a whip and sword dangling from her side. ;) The fact is, she dresses like that not to impress others; she dresses that way because of how it makers *her* feel. (Speaking of gatherings, probably the one with the largest Pagan footprint is Burning Man. )

But first impressions are real and make a difference. My first exposure to Wicca--in the 1980's--was to people who thought men should be excluded from the Craft. Off-putting--to say the least! Years later, I met more welcoming folks. There's a saying in Wicca "The Goddess always finds a way", so I consider what happened at first just to be a msg my time was not right. Fortunately, one day a charming woman lent me a Scott Cunningham book, and that's what got me going.

Were your first impressions formed a number of years ago? A lot has changed since then. Coven based Wicca used to be the norm, so getting involved meant invitation and initiation. If things didn't work out, finding a new group could be a problem. But Wiccans and Pagans tended to be early techno adopters, so they took every advantage of the networking and the internet, and this helped the community to grow. The recent "Solitary" movement, along with 'self initiation', also had a big impact as far as making the Craft more accessible. By many estimates, Wicca/Neo-Paganism are currently the fasted growing religions in the USA (also Australia).

It's OK to reject certain types of people. Maybe you feel they force you to address things you'd rather leave alone. "FAKE RELIGIONS", is a pretty harsh curse, if you know what I mean. If that's the case, go with your impulses--avoid Wicca. Your inner voice or gut impulses are your best spiritual guides, better than any book or teaching. However, if some jerks treated you badly, please don't judge us by the actions of a rowdy few. Alternative religions and lifestyles are often the refuges of people who have been rejected by society. Such people play-out their lives at the extremes of human experience, for that is their refuge for love and a family. The sad thing is, it's often something bad and cruel that pushed them to those extremes. When one chooses to dance at the extremes, you are destined to eventually run into some bad people. But if such subcultures did not exist, there'd be a lot less art, poetry, music, and progress in this world. The "Alt" community is a pretty large one, encompassing many lifestyles and belief systems. There certainly is crossover. A good friend use to pat me on the back and say, "Great minds run in the same gutter." Heh!

It's the "beliefs" you have trouble with. It would be really valuable if you could give me an example of what you find trivial? Perhaps the thrust of you question is not that off the mark. It caused me to check around a bit and ask some questions. Some insiders have recently asked such questions in Pagan conference and other forums. A number of individuals expressed the feeling that the religion was now mature enough for certain elements to be codified (for lack of a better term). Of course, others are not so sure. It will be interesting to see what happens. So Laurel, I don't want to give you the impression through all this that I'm trying to rationalize away your criticism. Next time I meet up with my Circle, I promise to bring up this issue

But I want to repeat again that "beliefs" are not what we're all about. It is not a "faith-based" authoritarian religion. We are more concerned with performing and keeping the practices alive, and helping it evolve. Most of us cast circles, call the Elements, Invoke the Goddess and God, burn incense and light candles. Everyone gets a role, everyone gets to do or say something, we all are part of our ceremonies and dynamically involved in our Sabbats and other rituals. Of course, the shy ones don't have to say anything. :) In my own tradition, you see it in prayers left by Pharaohs and Priests in Ancient Egypt. When addressing Goddesses and Gods, they rarely say things like "I believe in you ...", "I have faith in you...". Instead they say things like "I build this beautiful house of worship ...I said the prayers...I left you offerings...". (Btw, this interpretation is backed up by Egyptologists and archeologists. From page 40 of Wilkinson's 'The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt' [2003], "...the Egyptian concept of religion centered far more upon individual and collective service of the gods and upon right actions than on abstract theological ideas, creeds or tenants of belief." ) Generally speaking, how you act and what you've done is more important for Pagans and Wiccans. If only it were so of some other religions.

I appreciate the opportunity to try to illustrate my path and share some elements of my spirituality. Please note: I'm sure some Neo-Pagans reading this will find fault with what I've said, and that's how it should be. One thing I have to express is that proselytizing is a no-no among Wiccans. We don't 'evangelize'. Interfering with someone's intended path of spiritual exploration is egocentric and manipulative, to say the least. Be careful of someone who wants to take you by the hand in spiritual matters, as they just might lead you off a cliff! Heh!

For anyone interested in the history of Wicca:

"Drawing Down The Moon: Witches, Druids, Goddess Worshippers and Other Pagans in America Today" (1979/1986) by Margot Adler. An awesome work, it's a historical analysis covering the time period from the mid 1970s-to the mid 1980s. Of note are great 'life history' interviews with some of the founders of the Craft.

"Bonewits's Essential Guide to Witchcraft and Wicca" (1971/2006). This little book also covers the history of the craft. Bonewits has a snarky wit, and holds some controversial opinions. He does not hesitate to call out people who he considers to be pushing false history. If you enjoy a 'no nonsense' style, you'll like this book.

My favorite web resource is Witchvox:

http://www.witchvox.com

There lots of essays, articles, news items, and strong sense of community. For an explanation of the "Wiccan Rede", which is about all there is in the "beliefs" department:

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usfl&c=basics&id=2876

I think you might find this one interesting, Laurel. It's a story of family strife one young women encounters:

Http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=ussc&c=words&id=10451

Lastly, anyone who wishes to contact me, feel free to do so at my blog:

Http://witchesandscientists.blogspot.com

Well, I've taken up far too much of your good time. I don't mean to overstay my welcome. Sorry I've gotten rather wordy. Good luck to you all.

Blessed be,
Gene

If pagans were the country folk still practising the old pre jewish/christian religions surely whatever they were worshiping call it wicca if you like would have more validity than the newer man made faiths which all seem to do little more than promise happiness after death while encouraging you to spend your life with your mind hobbled by religious dogma always subserviant to the notion of top down control wicca seems to only have one rule do what you will as long as it harms no other .

Have you forgotten your past? It's not all peaches and cream.......just read the Torah...God smiting here, Jews killing there.....

Before you poke the others eye out, clean yours out with water.

Who were the biggest sacrificers, were Christians, they have sacrificed millions of men, women and children to their God, in fact any one who did not worship in they way they deemed appropriate, a popular method was burning alive at the stake, drowning and being tortured to death were also acceptable, but their all time favourite is/was war (as you get rape, pillage and plunder thrown in as bonuses). Try and deny the truth of that, it is noted every where in history and particularly referenced quite often in the bible itself.

Personally, I was born and raised Jewish; Bat Mitzvah'd and everything. In addition, my father's side of the family is Catholic so I've dealt with both sides of the religious spectrum. However, I realized at about the age of 14 that Judaism just wasn't right for me. That feeling of joy and enlightenment many have when they hear from the Torah... I didn't have that and never realized it was wrong until then. I began researching different religions and came across Wicca, something I'd heard about years ago. And it clicked. A religion built around helping and loving life in all its beautiful forms? A compassionate and kindly God and Goddess? Such freedom to practice in a manner that feels right to an individual! How can anyone see that as evil? It's possible even to apply Wiccan beliefs to other religions (for ahwile, for example, I tried to mix Judaism and Wicca by praying only to God and not Goddess, but this simply didn't feel right to me).

I still don't understand how so many people can have such grand misconceptions about a religion; not even just Wicca either. Anywhere you go there's some sort of misunderstanding about a religion...

Wicca is anything -but- a fake religion. It's very real, and has a beauty about it that all other religions have as well.

Please don't think that I am trying to convince you that Wicca is "the best religion," I merely want to express the sentiment that it is a religion equal to any other. Everyone, of course, has any right they please to have any thoughts or opinions they wish upon anyone. But it's dangerous to judge by sterotypes: someone has said already that, like the fact that not all Jews go to synagogue every Friday night and not all Christians go to church every Sunday, not all Wiccans dress in ren-faire garb, wear bells, and do spells. Like all other religions, we have our own denominations and ways of worship.

When you get right down to it, all religions are fake religions. Someone made them up. That doesn't make them any less important to people.

Paganism has been around long before any real organized religion was established. Look at the ancient Greeks and Romans. They were pagans. When "organized" religions came, namely the Catholic Church, they turned pagan symbols into "evil" ones, such as the inverted pentagram representing Satan, or turning the symbol that represented the female genitalia and the fish that swallowed Osiris' penis into the "Jesus Fish," and other such things. Paganism is not a fake religion, by any means. Wicca is a name that is simply stamped on any pagan.

After reading this lot all I can say is Thank God I'm an Atheist

...have a history of committing and having had committed against them, a huge number of atrocities. This happens to any group that maintains large numbers over time. Humanity is full of atrocities.

Wicca and neo-paganism, however, are based on a rule that is called the Rede.

"An it harm none, do what thou wilt."

And the belief that doing harm will visit that harm back upon you thrice over.

Making the neo-pagan beliefs one of the least-harmful and most group-friendly of just about any religion.

Some Wiccans (Dianic wiccans in particular) have removed the God's importance in the religion, and made it all about the Goddess and a matriarchy, but it really isn't about that. It's about balance and doing no harm.

But every religion's people have had schisms that twist the faith, now, haven't they?

And it's always saddening to those who just want a good community and for everyone to get along. Including me.

- Drake Steele, Pagan.

So, our magical fairy being is TRUE, but someone else's is NONSENSE that MAKES YOU GIGGLE. Nice. How do you react when Christians GIGGLE at YOU?

The only difference between Judaism and Wicca is exactly where you said it was...in your head.

Ok, I am a witch and have gone through the training and such to become one. I did not read a book and proclaim "I am a witch". No I did the year and a day study under the tutelage of an elder of my tradition. Wicca IS NOT A NEW RELIGION. Only the term Wicca is. Long before the male dominated paternal dogmas there were the maternal or mother goddess practices. The willendorf venus is one of the oldes forms of the goddess made by human hands and predates Judeaism, Christianity or Islam. A lot of what I am reading that is negative about my religion is all from the misconceptions made by books (fiction) and hollywood. Starhawk was mentioned in some of the posts. She is a member of my tradition along with other notable authors Pacsha Nightmare and Aidan Kelly to name a few. What has given the religion of witchcraft (which is what it is) a bad name is predjudice, misinformation and the so called "wannabes". Those kids that go around claiming to do spells and such and casting curses. Any true practitioner of witchcraft knows better. We do not advertise, we do not cast curses because of our belief in Karma (look it up in Wiki) and we do not expose ourselves in such a manner to gain attention. After all it can be negative attention. I am tolerant of all religions. I was Catholic, then buddhist, then hindu, then Lutheran then nothing then finally found my path in witchcraft. So before you criticise anothers religion please study it and read about it. But stay away from Llewellyn series published in the 70's that stuff is garbage. Knowledge is power, and it is no sin to learn. I have studied many religions and have friends that are of many different faiths. If everyone would lose their fear of what they don't understand then people would understand the world around them far better.

It's been fascinating to read down the line of comments. Yes, there has been centuries of bad-mouthing between the religions. That does *not* make it right. The Jews of old would throw rocks at people until they died.......somewhat barbaric? Romans would just nail you to a cross.....yep, pretty awful...and yet there are people who walk around with that archaic death trap on their chest *shudder* - it'd be like walking around with a hangman's noose or an electric chair on some level around your neck, don't you think? Then again the Druids of ancient times in Gaul (that's Jolly old France to the layman) according to Gaius Julius Ceasar would make a gigantic wicker man and place inside their criminals and burn it. Thus human sacrifice.......is this true?! We have no way of knowing for sure. We have only the word of the conqueror who was trying to make them appear as barbaric as he could. If you're getting right down to human sacrifice, the only society who openly did so and revelled in it was the Incas who made large shelves to put the skulls on of those who had been sacrificed. *sigh*
Now.
The Jewish people have been persecuted for their beliefs and God only knows what all else over THOUSANDS of years - I've never really understood it; but read the history books - it's there. Kicked out of one area or another for no other reason other than their choice of religion and yet it was "OK" because they were Jewish. Richard the Lionheart paid for his crusade largely because he kicked the Jews out of England (or tried to) and took their cash. Is this OK?! NO it's not OK. Does the Jewish community have reason to feel bitter?! Bloody right. But SO DOES THE PAGAN COMMUNITY. There's a thought. Look, it may be a relatively new belief system, the Neo-Pagan movement, reaching all the way back to the 1950's to Gerald Gardner (Well, Wicca does, anyway) however, Paganism is a different story. Pagans are anyone who does not follow the "big 3" religion-wise - that's Christianity, Judaism or Islam for the layperson - so yep, that means the Dalai Lama....Pagan.....funny how that works, eh? Paganism is an umbrella term that encompasses pretty much any belief that's not the "big 3" and it most often does include Wicca but also does include Witchcraft which is NOT Wicca - there's where a LOT of confusion lies. ie: I'm Pagan but not a Wiccan. I do not subscribe to the Gerald Gardner ideals or Coven-craft - I'm a Solitary Practitioner and though I do follow the Harm None basics and have nothing but respect for the Natural world in which we all live, trying to be a good person, I also watch and learn as much as possible. I study and look at history, hoping that we will not be doomed to repeat it. You see, it's the attitudes such as the mindless "just go ahead and BURN the witch!" that has brought about the Malleus Mallefecarum in the middle ages which did bring about the deaths of not JUST midwives and healers (many of those healers who did know things about the simple things that herbs can do could well have BEEN witches/pagans - ready for this? They would also have had NOTHING to do with the Devil/Satan or anything of the sort because anything like that would be anti-healing counteractive to the natural world and to what their focus would be - which would be life and living and healing - simple as that) Yet many Jews were also killed during this time because they did not conform to the beliefs of the Inquisititors.
Now, you could say "it never happened..." but then, there are plenty who say that about the Holocause, aren't there? Doesn't mean it didn't happen. We're all well aware that it DID happen. We're all aware that the Jewish faith is as valid as any. There are certainly weekend Jews just as there are Weekend Witches - perhaps those you've come across at D&D/concerts and such - however, there are also quite serious Witches who simply walk our talk, live our lives and who try to be the best people we can be in a world where the media, film and tv and those such as you portray us to be so many things we are not without a second thought. As people of the Jewish faith, I'd have thought you'd have known what that would feel like - my own Grandmother was Jewish and certainly raised me to think as much - but perhaps you weren't raised the same? Perhaps you weren't raised to know that what you see in the news/media isn't always what *is*. Perhaps next time you might try looking deeper into what something *is* before making a knee-jerk judgement?
I've seen that Gene (Blessed Be, Gene) suggested Witchvox to you, might I also suggest WitchGrove, www.witchgrove.org -
Blessed Be,
Cerridwyn

At one time every faith was new. You say that your respect is there for faiths that is "old and stuff"... Well barein mind that most modern forms of Wicca is attempting to revive older pagan faiths. If I say to you that the Jewish faith is only as old as the word Jew you would most likely correct me. I would be told that Abraham formed the faith before the words Jewish or Isrealite were formed and I would agree with you on that point. But us of the Wiccan faith are trying to breath life and modernize the old pagan faiths. And in doing so we are accused of makeing this up and deluding ourselves. I would admit that some in my faith need guidence like I am sure there are Jews that need the guidence of their fellow Jews. In the long run I care little what you think of us; I know where I stand with the devine. I wish you peace wisdom, and health.

Not all of us of the Wicca faith are "candy couting" our faith or the old pagan faiths. For the most part moder Wicca is an attempt to refined the older faiths (not all of whom sacraficed children)and modernize them.

CHOO-CHOO!!

It'd be a shame if when I read all these comments I didn't immediately see the same thing that I always see. Here, let me break it down for you:

"Blah blah blah, I'm fascinated by the way you perceive me, blah blah. Blah blah, I've studied many religions, blah blah. Let me name some religions for you, blah blah: Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, Scientologist, Taoist, Shintoist, blah blah. To be fair, though, "Buddhism" is actually more of a DOGMA than a RELIGION. Blah blah. Look it up! Blah. You may be interested in learning MORE ABOUT MY RELIGION before you bash it. Blah blah. Christ is a corpse! LOL! Blah blah! Alistair Crowley, Denise Richards, LeToya Jackson, blah blah. Wisdom. Blah blah, Spirituality, Inner sorrow, Blessed, blah blah, druids, blah,

In love of the trees, blah blah, blessed, spirits, blah,

Sarella (Real name: Mary)"

I think maybe I'd be more inclined to give Wicca a chance if the members weren't all so painfully obnoxious to me. But what can you do? I'm just a bigot.

CHOO! CHOO! THERE GOES THE STEREOTYPE TRAIN!!

It's so unfair that funny people can get away with things us boring earnest folk can't. 

 Man, Craig!

My problem is that I tend to lose respect immeidately for any posts with serious grammatical and spelling errors.  As a rule I don't bother responding to people who can't spell.

So I guess I'm a bigot too, but not so funny as you...

xoL http://jewishyirishy.com

But I still maintain candy is the best candy-coating.

Hello, I very belatedly stumbled upon this (on StumbleUpon) and just thought to say, well, in a rambling fashion... I believe that a religion is stronger when you make it yourself. Not that I'm saying the monotheistic patriachal religions are less valid for being popular-- I mean, whether the basis is as structured and traditional as Judaism and you just study to know and resonate with it, or revive the old Gods that best call to one's subconscious, or digging into what you personally need and what you see other people needing to invent a deity, (Indeed, the going theory-- admittedly from The Science of Discworld by Terry Pratchett, Jack Cohen, and Ian Stewart-- was even Abraham's God was such a revolutionary concept, a breath of fresh air when everyone else could only conceive of many gods who specialized their works,) "real" faith comes from the individual. My mom said that converts tend to be much stronger believers than those who were born into that religion because they make a conscious rational choice to believe, and they work so that other people would recognize them as true believers.

And, yeah, I've been the 13-year-old ten-pound-pentacle wearer, hypocritically worshipping the Goddess but really only in it for the self-worshipping magic spells that help to overcompensate for powerlessness in real life, AND I've been the guilt-riddled Catholic schoolgirl who quotes Biblical verse like a robot and is so barred in by all those rules that the only way to prove I was "good" was to put other people down (which in hindsight kind of was contrary to Christ's bottom line, but no turning back now-- too many bad experiences with other practitioners, you understand...) ... and I've been the hollow agnostic, fluffbunny Buddhist if there ever was a thing, angry atheist, then the apathetic atheist, but after recognizing that faith is really individual, most of those conflicts just fly away. (Of course, where bombs are involved one can't help judging how other people practice, but that's a whole other can of worms.)

Er, I call myself a Chaote now, but only because apparently nobody knows what that is. Cheers!

-tripl3ntedre

yes, wicca is kooky and "new" but please do not dismiss all witches and pagans out of hand. my family (puerto rican) has been practicing Brujeria (spanish for witchcraft) for several hundreds of years. possibly more *who knows* they weren't literate until my grandmothers generation. people constantly want to lump afro-carib native religions with wicca and other such beliefs and it is simply apples and oranges. (incidentally we use catholic imagery & statuary to represent our god/desses) there are different kinds of witchcraft, all I ask is that people do NOT get their information from tv and fictional print. ya wanna know what smokes my ass? christians who suddenly drop JC, decide to be a witch and start wanting people to call them Lord/Lady Someshit! Being a witch doesn't make you a peer of the realm....I enjoy a GOOD LAUGH but the vampire/cosplay/fairies/Lord/Lady crap really keeps witchcraft in the closet for normal followers. what a shame.

flippin yanks man, you all do my head in. scientology is a FAKE religion, if your goin to dis Wicca and Pagenism, then the worse you can do is call it a way of life. Peace out. ooh, and stop invading countrys for oil 'kay fanks bye.

...as shooting witches in a barrel.  As tempting as it is to point out that the defenders of Abrahamic spirituality are enamored of the age (in years) of the religion, this thread points to a different barometer for understanding the absurdity of fancy energies for which there is no evidence, no matter what name you give them: proximity to the culture that believes.  The further away, the sillier the superstition.  This works across time and distance.  A person in Canada probably thinks that certain Pacific islanders' belief in little tiny, tiny people that live everywhere and are just too small to be seen by the human eye is sillier than, say a Middle Eastern fellow whose flesh was remarkably resilient to nails and spears.  Displacement is what one might think of in a loose scientific context as varying test groups: grow a belief in one kind of soil, measure its fruits, then transplant it 1000 miles away, see how well it does.  In pre-Christian Europe, I'm sure all the buggery of Wicca made perfect sense.  Today, it looks silly.  

H.L. Mencken once pontificated: when mankind was young, it tended to do things that are common to what we now understand as child psychology--not least is the attribution of agency to objects that have none.  The only thing monotheism did was made it possible for an idea to have agency rather than things and elements.  The attribution, however is no more or less mistaken.        

Isn't it a bitch, though?  Humans have gotten smarter as they've gone along, which means they did the most dumb things the longest ago (this is empirically true, given the way natural selection weeded out our ancestors).  YET, some people have somehow determined that the longer ago a thing was done, the less dumb it must be.   And so we enshrine practices and misapprehensions about the universe that are sillier than the notion that the earth is flat. 

you have so eloquently just called all followers of the big 3 fools.... i like it.
although I think you would change your mind about religion after eating with ours on a holiday, its really just all about the food.

who is Jake?

jake josh its all the same, starts with j

I didn't really say that followers of the big 3 are fools.  Plenty are extremely intelligent--they just compartmentalize their beliefs.  Of course this irrational thing can seep over and sometimes crowd out their intelligence.  That is common, but it's not necessary.  Moreover, I'm not concerned with discrediting religions as much as I am superstition and faith.  As I mentioned in my Schvitz post today about Dennis Prager, I don't care what you call it, as long as you don't obscure or deny the truth, call things that are unreal real, or exalt absence of evidence above evidence.    

Josh after further contemplation I decided it really is about the food for me.  But since we are on the subject, how can you not discredit religion and at the same time repudiate faith?  Without faith there is no religion, simply a set of wacky traditions.  Why else would anyone give up BLT?