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Martin Samuel Cohen
& Frances Dinkelspiel
who are posting all week.
Coming up:
- 12/01: Benyamin Cohen
- 12/01: Matthew Rothschild
- 12/08: Seth Greenland
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The Heretic: Exploiting Undocumented Workers Exploits Judaism |
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| Will your children and grandchildren be kind, moral, and ethical people? | ||
 by Shmarya Rosenberg, August 14, 2008 |
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Undocumented workers, always one phone call away from deportation and a moment away from being summarily fired, are afraid to object to abusive working conditions. This makes them ripe for exploitation, as has been amply documented, and is one reason why US labor law does not allow employers to prevent illegal workers from unionizing. The May 12 immigration raid at Agriprocessors in Postville, Iowa, the world’s largest kosher slaughterhouse, exposed the dark underbelly of illegal immigration. In response to this exploitation, the Jewish community has split in two.
One side, overwhelmingly non-Orthodox in affiliation, views the conduct of the Rubashkin family, Agriprocessors’ hasidic owners, as beyond the pale. It looks at the history of Agriprocessors and its owners and sees a clear, long term pattern of disregard for US law and halakha, Jewish law. It has demanded change, urged boycott, and rallied for justice.
The other side, overwhelmingly Orthodox, sees little wrong with Agriprocessors. It argues Agriprocessors is being mistreated; that liberal Jews, unions, and unnamed competitors are behind the raid and its media coverage; and that Jewish law governing treatment of workers should at any rate be divorced from Jewish law governing the preparation of kosher food. To these people, the many well documented sins of Agriprocessors and its owners, sins that stretch back many years in an unbroken chain, are irrelevant.
Absent from the first is much concern over the availability of kosher meat.
Absent from the second is much concern for the poor, often illiterate men and women (and children) who produce our food.
There is no biblical command to eat meat, and many of the Rubashkins’ fellow hasidim went years without eating meat because of the difficulty of getting kosher meat in the Soviet Union.
There are, however, several biblical commands that apply to Agriprocessors workforce. The most striking comes from Deuteronomy 24:14-15:
You shall not abuse a needy and destitute laborer, whether a fellow countryman or a stranger in one of the communities in your land. You must give him his wages on the very same day [he works], before the sun sets, because he is needy and he urgently depends on it – otherwise he will cry out to God against you and you will be guilty.
A good example of Orthodoxy's apparent disconnect on the issue is the plight of many new workers who are brought to Postville by staffing companies working under contact to Agriprocessors.
Recruited from large cities and shipped into Postville, these poor, often destitute people are charged a transportation fee of $75 dollars, despite the fact that the staffing companies are paid for every hired worker. Employees are told they have a couple of main options for living arrangements.
They can find apartments or beds on their own, or they can rent a bed from the staffing company for $100 per week in what is euphemistically called “campus-style” housing.
That is $100 per week for what is often a mattress on the floor of a room shared with one or two strangers, in a house filled with more strangers, each clinging to his or her own mattress in a room filled with strangers. (And this is in Postville, Iowa where housing prices are ridiculously low compared to New York or even St. Paul, where a furnished room – not a bed – in a nice part of town rents for $300 per month.)
Rent is automatically deducted from workers’ weekly paychecks.The “advantage” to this arrangement is that workers do not need to make a security deposit. And, a Rubashkin family member has been quick to tell me, they get extras: their lawn is cut for them, their utilities are included in the rent, and the house may have cable TV. Sometimes, a staffing company employee even drives a van load of workers to a nearby WalMart.
Staffing companies do offer cash advances – $100 per week. But in at least one case, those advances are tied to ATMs that charge $5 per transaction. Lacking local bank accounts or a safe place to keep their money, workers tend to make more frequent, smaller withdrawals rather than one or two large ones. 20% or more of their cash advances can be easily eaten up by fees.
A worker who nets $80 on his cash advance still pays back $100, and that $100 is automatically deducted from his next paycheck.
Another arrangement has workers renting “campus style” directly from the same landlord the staffing company rents from – GAL Investments, owned by another Chabad hasidic Jew, Gabey Menahem.
The $400 per month fee for a bed drops to just under $230 per month with this plan. But workers need to make a security deposit equivalent to one month’s rent and pay their first month’s rent up front, as well. GAL is said to be a bit flexible on this, allowing workers to pay their security deposits and first month’s rent with their first or second weekly paycheck.
Why the largesse?
Perhaps because rent and security deposits are automatically deducted from workers’ pay by Agriprocessors – in other words, workers’ paychecks are their security.
These and other arrangements offered to new workers often leave these workers with empty paychecks – paychecks that, after taxes, “fees,” and rent leave workers with no money.
How do they eat?
A significant number of them rely on the community food shelf administered by members of the local Catholic church.
Some Agriprocessors supporters have actually claimed that Agriprocessors keeps the food shelf stocked – a claim that was vociferously denied by Paul Real, the man who runs it, and by Father Paul Ouderkirk and Sister Mary McCauley, the clergy who are most involved in the food shelf’s daily operation.
Use of the food shelf has grown exponentially since the raid, first by illegal workers awaiting trial or hiding out from Immigration police, and then from destitute new workers recruited by Agriprocessors who arrive holding pay stubs that show many hours worked but no net pay.
And, through it all, Agriprocessors and its supporters see nothing wrong.
A delegation of 20 hand-picked Orthodox rabbis friendly to the company, and five hand-picked Orthodox journalists who write for similarly supportive publications, recently took a trip to Postville (all expenses paid by Agriprocessors) to “inspect” company operations.
Their initial itinerary did not include meetings with Ouderkirk, Real and MacCauley or with former workers. No provision was made to meet current workers off-site where they might feel a bit freer to speak, and no provision was made to preserve workers’ anonymity. The rabbis also refused to meet with union representatives.
In the end, only four of the rabbis met Real and a church representative. Two – Pesach Lerner, the EVP of Young Israel, and David Eliezrie, a sometime spokesman for Chabad who has been acting as a media advisor for Agriprocessors – are open supporters of Agriprocessors, and were the co-organizers of the trip. Another, Daniel Moscowitz, heads Chabad in Illinois and is close to the Rubashkin family.
Yet the clear conflicts of interest and this lack of balance did not stop these Orthodox rabbis from issuing statements ‘clearing’ Agriprocessors. Predictably, the Orthodox journalists followed suit.
We have two Jewish communities, really two Jewish peoples. The fault line dividing them is Orthodox observance. One views exploitation of workers – much like other Agriprocessors-related crimes – with horror. The Orthodox other couldn’t seem to care less.
“Everybody does it,” a Chabad hasid told me. “Why should Rubashkin be different?”
“The Torah,” I replied.
The hasid did not understand my response.
Orthodox outreach groups are fond of asking potential recruits a question: Will your grandchildren be Jewish? The idea being that if the non-Orthodox person doesn’t take proactive steps now, his children or grandchildren will marry non-Jews.
Those proactive steps?
Adopting Orthodoxy, of course.
The thing is, they're asking the wrong question. Their question focuses on genetic group identity rather than behavior. The question should be, "Will your children and grandchildren be kind, moral, and ethical people?"
Asked that way, the answer is clear.
Orthodoxy as currently practiced is no guarantee of ethical behavior – in fact, it’s probably contraindicated.
Agriprocessors has proved that.
Akiva S.
It is not a black or white situation. It is not an Orthodox versus non Orthodox issue. Agriprocessors needs to reform its work practices and the Non Orthodox need to stop being haters of Orthodox.
Anonymous
Maybe this isn't nice but I can't help balking at your reference to "children and grandchildren" - when you know perfectly well that none of your non-Orthodox readers, and probably including you too, DON'T and WON'T HAVE ANY OF THOSE. The median age of non-Orthodox American Jews is FIFTY YEARS OF AGE. Only ONE household in four has a member who is under age 18.
It is an unpleasant reality that it is impossible to have grandchildren without first having children.
Back to the topic. Let's re-phrase: "Would your children and grandchildren, if by some lucky chance you ever had any, be kind, moral, and ethical people?"
If you like liberals, make one. Without going Orthodox. Not easy.
Anonymous
If you pack it in and go Orthodox you can eat vegetarian, and you'll have to cook for two days on Friday, and not check your email on Saturday, but you'll have a LIFE. Being married is work, but BEING SINGLE is WORK, TOO.
In a free society - say, a non-Orthodox society - men marry later, well into their thirties, and marry women a good bit younger than themselves, and sometimes non-Jews, because - that way it's easier to be the Mr. Big-shot in the home. Jewish women who "wait" to "settle down" are kidding themselves. Their only hope is going Orthodox, to have a husband and a kid. Consider: non-Orthodox guys are not going along with your program. They don't want marriage at all until much later, and then they don't want YOU. You're nice, but you're too old to be pushed around. They want someone naive, who will look up to them in that respectful way that their age-mates don't.
Your future is empty chairs. You know that, you just don't think about it much, it's a taboo subject. Yet you dare to natter on about sausage making. Break the taboo if you're so radical and daring.
WoolSilkCotton
It's amazing to see the hate, the backword medieval narrow-minded thinking, the ridiculous prejudices and stereotypes of old eastern Europe, all still alive and well with today's orthodox who write on these blogs. All gentiles are considered dumb, easy to manipulate, antisemitic, and ripe for the picking.
Enjoy your filthy Rubashkin meat.
Anonymous
It's the unmentioned scandal of the age: Orthodox men are the only ones who marry young enough to marry an age-mate and have children, and it is because they are made to forcibly, by their culture. And, no, not all of them are angels, either. But with them, there is a sporting chance of an honorable, fertile marriage, with an age-mate.
These non-Orthodox guys are great party material, and fine, sweet friends of their conveniently liberated female friends - so cooperative, so well-trained not to whine about "commitment," but when they eventually put their arm around a white-gowned shoulder, it is not going to be yours.
Non-Orthodox marriage is dead. In fact, it's also dead from the female side too, because the young, non-Orthodox women won't look at the older guys, who want them. So, the guys get rejected, too. There is an inch of dust on the new-born ward in their hospitals.
The workers you mention aren't having a nice time but my serious bet is that they will have a lot more grandchildren than you will, and somehow that just matters.
Survival is the first test of ANY strategy. Last Mohican, don't give lessons. What makes you so smart? You can't even survive your own dear self.
Anonymous
I am late-life born-again Orthodox, BT, and I don't hate anybody, or look down on, or manipulate anybody. In fact, I don't approve of inter-marriage, partly because I think your women -and men- are YOUR PROPERTY, and we shouldn't steal them. So there.
Anonymous
The word for an Orthodox man is, in the vernacular, "husband". It is a specialized term, once in general use. It's counterpart term, among the non-Orthodox, is "dude".
Anonymous
woolsilkcotton- the only person breeding hate is u ,hopefully ur not breeding children(but if u are warn us first)
A Different Anonymous
You missed the mark here. There are plently of Orthodox Jews who feel shamed by the Rubashkin scandal. I am Torah observant Jew. Kashrut, Shabbat, and all goes with it. And I am not alone in being sickened by this scandal...and by much that goes on in the charedi world. Don't lump us all together.
Anonymous
A Different Anonymous, tell us more, because there could indeed be a place in the world for a strictly Torah-faithful group, which is more regular-folks.
There is room for everybody, haredi included.
The Torah / Talmud is eternal, and we have to cleave to it, while being quite ordinary people, as our ancestors did. This could address some issues such as high tuitions, and too-tight marriage standards. We need Shleppers Anonymous, Strict Torah- Faithful People in Machine-Washable Clothes. Or WNEPA, the Weird Non-Elite Parents' Association who like Jewish distance learning for their children and themselves. Used wedding gowns. People who are neither thin nor rich, but who love G-d, and eat normal food cooked at home in a crock pot or on a stove. People who have a steibel or steiblette in their home and the door is open.
There is nothing ethical about sterility.
Shmarya Rosenberg
If "there are plently of Orthodox Jews who feel shamed by the Rubashkin scandal" and by "much that goes on in the charedi world," where are your voices?
What you write may be true. But, until you and others stand up, use your real names and object to Agriprocessors, etc., it is like you do not exist.
Halakhicly, you must make a public protest. Otherwise, your silence is considered agreement.
justayid
I know lots of Orthodox people who are nice. They may not all be up in arms about Rubashkin, but then not all my Reform and Masorti friends joined me for the rally for Darfur. Human beings are weak.
I also know lots of non-O who have children. Even young people. I know some who have 3 or 4 children. And thats in the USA, not Israel. Maybe not that as many as I would like, but like whats happened with O, selection is going to favor whatver they are doing right.
So much anger comes from generalizations. We just had Tu BShvat. Time to relect on sinat chinam?
DieHipsterScum
just a yid - u meant tisha ba'av but good point
Getzel Rubashkin
"these poor, often destitute people are charged a transportation fee of $75 dollars"
Evidently someone owes these people free transportation.
They can rent a bed from the staffing company for $100 per week in what is euphemistically called “campus-style” housing.
Shmarya conveniently forgets to mention that this is an arrangement made by a specific staffing agency for the workers they bring, less than %10 of the workforce. Notice how he makes it sound as if he is discussing the general arrangements.
Rent is automatically deducted from workers’ weekly paychecks
False. The option to pay in this way is available, should the employee need it. It is not automatic, it is opt-in.
Staffing companies do offer cash advances – $100 per week. But in at
least one case, those advances are tied to ATMs that charge $5 per
transaction. Lacking local bank accounts or a safe place to keep their
money, workers tend to make more frequent, smaller withdrawals rather
than one or two large ones.
Shmarya fabricates this calculation by making the argument that they lack bank accounts. There is nothing preventing them from opening bank accounts, and no reason for them to be losing money by making multiple withdrawals.
He also forgot to mention that GAL Investments has provided thousands of dollars in interest-free $100 loans to people who have been hit by rental deductions on their first paycheck. GAL is evidently only interested in money, and is trying to milk the workers as much as possible.
[On GAL rental arrangements: They require a] security deposit equivalent to one month’s rent and [..] their first month’s rent up front, as well.
False. They do not require money upfront - they will arrange for paycheck deductions if necessary.
David Kelsey
The Orthodox community's reaction of support for Rubashkin has helped me get past my guilt over not always keeping kosher.
Anonymous
You don't like this kind of Jew? Fine. So, show us a different kind of Jew! You be it! BUT WHILE FOLLOWING THE TORAH RULES. It's TOO EASY to just scrap the rules, and be a nice ethical person, who is not doing any cultural heavy lifting. Or social heavy lifting either. Anybody who just works and dates is not doing much social heavy lifting. No permanent obligations. No kids. Anybody for whom Saturday is just a weekend day is not pulling his freight as a Jew, and can't pontificate about what Jews should do, or not do, such as be a light unto the nations. You haven't paid your dues. Shush. First be observant, then you can talk. It's WORK to be Torah observant.It's rewarding. It's not like a fraternity hazing. But, you haven't done the WORK. They HAVE. They can be criticized by anybody as business people, but they cannot be criticized as JEWS, except by other Jews, who have also done the HARD WORK of observance, and, the expenses that come with that, such as large families, and the support of large institutions, both for prayer and life-long study at every age level, which are cost centers. What are you floating? What pressures are on you? Whose tuitions are you paying?
Agriculture is not pretty in general!! Most of it is not even Jewish-owned, let alone Orthodox owned. You might consider that. If we had any idea of where our food, clothing, and electronic gizmos came from, well, we might not like it. And no, most of it is not Jewish owned.
David N. Friedman
Regarding Shmarya's last comment concerning alleged silence-- the most important voice relating to the questions surrounding Agriprocessors is consumer choice. With this scandal, I have decided to not purchase their meat and we buy Empire products and meat sold independently in our area from our kosher butcher. I have little doubt business has not be very good for Agriprocessors in the wake of the allegations and in the wake of the Federal investigations. They are in a position of needing to win back their customer base and since I am in business, if my sales are off 20%--this is not tolerable. Trader Joe's no longer carries Rubaskhin products in my area and this must be from the news of the scandal. I have anticipated going to them to ask to renew the association but I will not ask quite yet. Perhaps they have lost the Trader Joes account throughout the US and this hurts. This is not silence. This is the message they need and there is a community of interest. This is all fair and reasonable, our community supports good business and does not support bad business.
Regarding the substance of Shmarya's allegation that Agriprocessors is exploiting the workers--I oppose illegal immigration for the opposite reason which is the reason which is fully in evidence and that is that these workers exploit the US taxpayer. Postville very clearly supports Agriprocessors and the workers are very obviously there to take advantage of the employment opportunity. I have argued furiously with some of my frum friends about the problem of hiring these illegals and they throw the fact of illegal immigration around the neck of the nation. I will not honor the argument and it is my belief that any business I deal with must make a good faith effort to not employ illegals. And yet, I will buy at Wal-Mart so does this make me a hypocrite? Perhaps, I think the difference is that Wal-Mart is not a Jewish-owned business with a higher mandate from our Torah.
"Abuse" is a serious accusation and one that is not really in evidence. Anecdotes cannot rightly doom a company's whole reputation. Worker "discontent" is not an all-powerful truth that kills the credibility of a good company. When labor union workers line up to protest some business (like they did recently at a Safeway grocery store), I oftentimes side with the company. The logic that if some worker is complaining the company must be at fault makes no sense. A criteria that says we will buy Rubaskhin meat if the baseline salary is $12/hour but not if people make $9/hour makes no sense. A stand that says I will buy the meat if a union is in place and I will not buy the meat if there is no union in place is simply empty-headed.
I have no doubt that the commandments in Devarim cited above in Shmarya's complaint are fully respected by the Rubuskhin family owners. Because they are under such suspicion, this business cannot afford any more negative attacks against its image. It would help if it repaired its relation with the Church that does not like its treatment of workers. I have only a general set of requirements and better PR and better facts on the grounds will be useful.
That is what I am looking for and at some uncertain point, I will judge that enough has been done and resume with the purchasing of their products. I regret that I cannot cite specific criteria that are specific--if someone has some suggestions, please post them. A few more approving trips from Jewish groups visiting the site also has a positive impact.
I really sense that this business will survive and this is a good thing. Mr. Rosenberg is intent on recycling a lot of old accusations, mudding the waters with a clear bit of malice. The critique is not in proportion to the real crimes that are in evidence.
Shmarya Rosenberg
For those who don't know, Getzel Rubashkin a grandson of Agriprocessors' owner, a son of its VP, and a management employee of Agriprocessors himself. Getzel normally hastens to say he's not officially speaking for Agriprocessors. He forgot to do it this time. Getzel spends and inordinate amount of time every day "not officially" representing his company.
As for GAL Investments, would you care to discuss the police call the other day? The one where your family's friend, GAL's owner and Chabad hasid, Gabey Menahem tried to evict a tenant even though the tenant's rent was paid through the end of the month. The very generous Mr. Menahem wanted the space for a new tenant. The cops told Menahem to leave his current tenant in place.
This is the same Gabey Menahem who put new workers in filthy, unkept "dorm style" homes with leaking roofs, holes in the floor, and rubbish scattered around.
The WCF Courier has some pics of one of these homes:
http://www.wcfcourier.com/articles/2008/06/29/news/regional/104267723.img
You can read all about it:
http://www.wcfcourier.com/articles/2008/06/29/news/regional/10426772.txt
You can even watch a video:
http://www.courierwebcasts.com/play.php?vid_id=1059&file=livingconditions.flv
(The clean, nice bookshelves are in the Courier office.)
Shmarya Rosenberg
>>>I really sense that this business will survive and this is a good thing. Mr. Rosenberg is intent on recycling a lot of old accusations, mudding the waters with a clear bit of malice. The critique is not in proportion to the real crimes that are in evidence.<<<
Read some new accusations, David:
http://www.forward.com/articles/13997/
Like most of the old "accusations," these are actually fact-based.
But don't let mere facts shatter your Orthodoxy-induced dream.
a conservative jew
As a conservative jew, i have to reluctantly agree with the orthodox posters here. Non orthodox judaism is dying out in America due to the low number of jewish children produced each generation.
I believe that throughout jewish history, whenever certain jews have decided to dress the same way as the dominant population, go to the same schools, and live in the same communities, the result has been intermarriage and assimilation.
I would challenge anyone reading this blog to name a jewish community at any time over the past three thousand years that integrated with the dominant population and survived.
The older generation here in America thought that they could preserve jewishness, just a non orthodox type of jewishness. But this has obviously been a failure.
Interestingly, I believe the only nations in the world where jews are not intermarrying are the nations where there is strong anti semetism. For example, Argentina has strong anti semetism and the intermarriage rate is much lower than in neighboring Brazil where anti semetism is much more mild.
In some ways, the safest jewish community in the world is the Jewish community of Iran. 25,000 Jews live in Iran, and for obvious reasons the rate of intermarriage is *very* low! Of course this community is not safe from pogroms, but they are safe from intarmarriage.
Reform judaism and conservative judaism were founded with the highest of hopes but both have proven to be cul de sacs.
In sum, i personally find many aspects of orthodox judaism (the Agriprocessors situation for example) to conflict with my "modern" sensibilities. But i must say that it is intellectually dishonest for any conservative or reform jew to deny that what we have to say is irrelevant - it is virtually certain that within 150 years essentially the only jews left in America will be the orthodox.
Conservative judaism and reform judaism can both be classified as terminal diseases.
DieHipsterScum
and yet u classify urself as a conservative jew ..............................
run that by me again....please
Anonymous
Shmarya,
You need to chill. Maybe your mole at Agri can help you score some of that Meth they make in Postville.
Whereas the stuff your write here and on your blog is often true, and I think you are doing holy work, Your hatred for all things Lubavitch and Frum permeates your writing and casts aspersions on most of your claims.
You expect us to believe that every Lubavitcher is corrupt and lying. Every Orthodox/Frum Jew is corrupt or has ulterior motives. Every journalist is on Chabad's doll (Sue Fishoff is of course the exception). Even the editor of the Yated (who went on the Lubinsky/Agri funded trip to Postville) is now a shill for Lubavitch.
(Yudel krinsky is probably a big fan of your site. Where else will he read that Lubavitch runs the media and wields such control)
Simultaneously, you want us to believe that none of your unnamed sources have axes to grind. You expect us to never questions your motives despite your obvious contempt to all things frum/lubavitch.
In the constant appeals to authority that appear in your writing, you expect us to accept that every Conservative/Reform institution is a paragon of righteousness and every Conservative/Reform/non-practicing Jew is an honest and ethical person. Please ... Its tiring. When you get a moment, read the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times. We don't say every Reform Jew is a philanderer, despite Eliot Spitzer. JTS has been trying to displace poor people in Washington Heights as part of its planned expansion. We don't say not to trust any Conservative rabbi being ordained by an organization that wants to toss old ladies onto the streets.
Still don't stop doing what you are doing. You are doing holy work, despite all the baggage that comes along with it.
DieHipsterScum
so is he part of gods private army doing holy work or is he an anti lubabitch/frum fruitcup? u cant have it both ways
clear that up for us morons -please
a conservative jew
i guess i am a conservative jew that realizes that my lineage will die off - i don't mean literally that my children won't produce jewish grand children (though the odds are against it if my children don't decide to become orthodox) Rather i mean that people with the values i hold dear - the values of modern, intellectual, rational, ethical conservative judaism are not going to exist in the jewish community in the future.
I don't really like spending time with orthodox jews, and i find their fierce tribalism to be offensive. I see the agriprocessors scandal as just the tip of the iceberg - as i see it many if not most orthodox don't see non jews as fully human and many if not most orthodox don't feel guilty and sad about mistreating non jewish workers the way that perhaps most people like me would. So orthodox jews are tribal and uncaring towards those who are not outside the tribe.
Let me give you an example - if you look at reform and conservative jews that are wealthy, the vast majority of their charity donations are given to non jewish charities. This makes sense to me, my values are to help others, not just our group. But if you look at the charity given by orthodox jews it is almost entirely to jewish charities. Again, the orthodox behavior pattern is different than mine, almost alien to mine.
The only good thing i can say about the orthodox is that in 150 years they will still be here - their culture will survive, their bloodlines will survive. In the end, as much as i dislike the orthodox, they are the ones that will survive - they will exist and my group - the conservative jews - will not.
At least i take comfort in knowing my fate and seeing it clearly - and not deluding myself like most of my friends in the conservative community. I tend to be friends with people that are observant by conservative standards, they go to high holiday services. They are very offended to hear my spiel on this subject so that is why i am spouting off on this blog !
WoolSilkCotton
Jews along the entire continuum of religiosity have existed, yes, and even thrived, for thousands of years. Not all Jews since Day One have been Orthodox, and yet we are all still doing just fine and dandy, thank you very much.
There is a broad spectrum of belief and observance, and us Jews are all over it; many of us travel along the spectrum, in any given direction, on a regular basis. No matter what you think you are, there is always someone more religious and someone less religious than you.
Judaism has withstood the test of time because of its inherent virtue. Once it is no longer considered good and morally desirable, that's when all of us will go the way of the dinosaurs, no matter how religious you think you are.
If there is something good to come out of the Rubashkin disaster, it's that everyone's core beliefs have been shaken, and dialogues have been open amongst Jews of all kinds, even if those dialogues get a little nasty sometimes. We are all struggling with the implications and repercussions.
So to all my fellow blogmeisters, hunched over your computer screens after a long day's work, trying to sort out your feelings over this thing and that thing, please keep up the good work.
Just don't start throwing furniture, and we will all emerge stronger and better from this.
zbird
I usually agree with Roseberg's postings but the second and third paragraphs of this latest articles are totally misleading.
Rosenberg states that the overwhelming majority of the anti-Rubashkin's are non-orthodox. Well, the overwhelming majority of American Jews are non-orthodox, so that proves nothing.
Rosenberg then states that the overwhelming majority of Rubashkin defenders are orthodox. That seems to be true based on a review of news articles (although I'd be the first to admit there's no scientific poll here) . And that demonstrates a rather tiny point: that no one except the orthodox would have any self-interest in defending the Rubashkins. But one thing Rosenberg does NOT say is that the majority of orthodox are defending Rosenberg.
It could very well be that only a tiny minority of orthodox jews are defending the Rubashkins, and that the vast majority of jews, of all levels of religiosity, are horrified.
--Z
Anonymous
Another of hitler's followers masquerading as a Jew. Fuck off nazi pig!
DieHipsterScum
whoa who knew anonymous posters could come up with shit like that whodathunkit
David N. Friedman
Ok, Shmarya, I have the Forward "expose" printed out and it comes down to the same old question--a company is hiring illegals. Absent in the discussion is the fact that there are perhaps 20 million illegals working for companies in America today. Alas, Agriprocessors has hired perhaps 17-25 illegals at their Brooklyn facility and the liberal Jewish press is having a field day over it.
I have said strongly on the record that I would not hire illegals and I have a specific take on the immigration issue. Interestingly, it is the Left at large that has taken a very liberal stand on the question, proposing amnesty.
In my book, I don't get it. Paying close to only minimum wage for illegal workers, is not a good way to run a business in the public eye. The line that everyone else is doing it may matter legally but is not a good strategy in terms of good public relations. As much as I despise unions, low wages have the affect of attracting union organizers. The family here is making tactical errors in its insistence that it can keep its most private decisions private and they are clearly guilty of being stubborn.
Abuse? Not really. Illegality? Yes, in the same way that 20 million others are also employed illegally. An affront to the nation's labor laws? They could have prevented this by being smarter. They could get a union forced on them and this is largely their own miscalculation.
The bottom line: a mountain or a molehill? It is a molehill.
You are not proving your case, Shmarya.
Shmarya Rosenberg
I think you need to learn how to read.
Agriprocessors hired illegals, paid them less than $7 pre hour with no benefits – and this is Brooklyn, for God's sake! – and, when the tried to unionize Rubashkin claimed they couldn't because……they're illegals.
Agriprocessors then fired the union election observer.
The NLRB found against Agriprocessors, citing clear a Supreme Court ruling allowing illegals to unionize.
Agriprocessors then appealed three times and lost each time, still refusing to recognize employees vote to unionize.
Now, Agriprocessors is appealing to the US Supreme Court – the same court that has already clearly ruled illegals can unionize. Legal experts don't believe the Supreme Court will hear the case.
Agriprocessors is thought to be appealing to stall for time. Every day it waits for a court decision is a day it can underpay its workers and avoid paying benefits.
And that's not all. Workers allege 55 hour weeks with……no overtime paid, just like Postville.
They speak of abusive bosses.
And your glatt kosher chulent comes from that abuse.
I urge everyone to read the Forward's new exposé:
http://www.forward.com/articles/13997/
As for David N. Friedman, he won't believe anything negative about the Rubashkins until God Himself tells him.
Keep waiting David. I'm sure God is "proud" of you.
WoolSilkCotton
Listen to the tour of Postville, as seen on the BBC, and you'll hear more of how Rubashkin screwed prospective employees.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7545663.stm
Anonymous
This is a T-shirt that is all the rage in the Belleville section of Paris. It is copied from the Nazi signs on the Lodz ghetto. Shmarya, would you wear it?
David Kelsey
When the ultra-Orthodox start bandying about the, "You are a Jewish Nazi!" allegation.
That's right, frummies...anyone who disagrees with the way your fekachteh meat factory abuses workers is clearly a Nazi.
Listen up, penguins. Some of us came here way before you people, when you were still shlugging kaparos (oh, right, you still do that, sorry) and cursing the "treife medinah." And OUR ancestors fought hard for workers rights and conditions, so if you think we are going to shut up because you call us "Nazis," well, you are in for a rude shock.
We will gladly end the supply of kashrut rather than allow these shenanigans to continue in the name of kashrut. Got it?
So why not just clean up your act?
WoolSilkCotton
If you disagree with anyone or anything orthodox, then you must be part of the vast left wing conspiracy of unions, PETA, 'progressive' Jews, 'pork eating' Jews, 'self-hating' Jews, liberals, Obama, The Forward, antisemites, nazis, and communists.
It seems that nonorthodox Jews are the ones with the Nobel Prizes, cures for diseases, and great works of the arts, literature and thought.
Foaming about nazis, nazis, nazis. Everyone and everything is a nazi. An antisemite. You are a nazi antisemite. An antisemitic nazi. A self-hating antisemitic nazi Jew. That's the orthodox contribution to modern thought.
That bizarre shirt from France is meant for ironic shock value; if you truly studied the Holocaust you would understand that wearing it does not make you a nazi. It's a reminder of man's inhumanity to man. Granted, it's probably too cutting edge for the masses, and most people would probably not understand the historic significance of the sign. But if you're orthodox, just start screaming antisemitism.
Jeff Eyges
“Everybody does it,” a Chabad hasid told me. “Why should Rubashkin be different?”
“The Torah,” I replied.
The hasid did not understand my response.
This sad, simple story cuts right to the heart of the problem. As with fundamentalists of all varieties - they don't get it; they're never going to get it.
First be observant, then you can talk. It's WORK to be Torah observant.It's rewarding. It's not like a fraternity hazing. But, you haven't done the WORK. They HAVE. They can be criticized by anybody as business people, but they cannot be criticized as JEWS, except by other Jews, who have also done the HARD WORK of observance
Right... and the fact that they aren't being criticized by "Torah-observant" Jews proves that they haven't done anything wrong. Isn't that convenient?
Jeff Eyges
Non orthodox judaism is dying out in America due to the low number of jewish children produced each generation... In the end, as much as i dislike the orthodox, they are the ones that
will survive - they will exist and my group - the conservative jews -
will not.
Conservative Jew,
I don't know. The Orthodox have been predicting our demise for two hundred years. We're still here.
It seems that nonorthodox Jews are the ones with the Nobel Prizes,
cures for diseases, and great works of the arts, literature and
thought.
Woolsilkcotton,
Haven't you heard? That's all part of the treife medina, and a Jew has no place in it. All that matters is wearing a black woolen suit in the summer and studying "Toyrah" all day.
Anonymous
Wow there is a lot of anger here. I'm Orthodox, but that doesn't mean that all the negative stories coming out of the Orthodox world are not upsetting to me too. The charedim are getting it wrong and exploiting Torah. They are fundamentalists, plain and simple. The words chillul hashem come to mind when I hear about much of what they are up to. But they aren't all of us, and our more moderate voices ARE out there if you look for it. We are here, raising our kids and living our lives, just as you are, and feeling dismayed at the turn Judaism is taking in charedi hands. We just don't make as sensational of a story as whatever the Charedi Behaving Badly story ju jour happens to be. You really cannot paint all Orthodox Jews with the same brush. I would never assume all non-observant Jews are the same.
Anonymous
"Conservative Jew, I don't know. The Orthodox have been predicting our demise for two hundred years. We're still here" -
Wait a minute! During those two hundred years there was no reliable, safe, contraception. There is, now. And, women couldn't make an independent living until forty years ago, with very few exceptions. And, there was huge social consensus that people should be married. Single was bad, and divorce was really bad. Pressure. Stigma. No more. Now that you have women who don't need anybody financially, or socially, and can "choose", it's a new world, and a very RECENT one. It is so recent that nobody knows what has hit them. While they are figuring it out - clever you, Conservative Jew! - it is rapidly becoming too late. A population with a median age of fifty doesn't need a china service for twelve.
antiShmarya
managed to convince the world that the Torah is not truth, and that G-d never "spoke" (whatever that means) to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai.
Good, now that the sarcasim is out of the way, let's go back to secular law.
What exactly have AGri- been convincted of? Nothing. Very good. So all your allegations, and blunt hatred is exposed, in glaring fasion.
Now, the voices of the observant jews will be heard, with their money.
It's very nice to see that you know a few passages from the Bible, but how do you have the balls to quote somthing as being "halacha"? Your brazenness is impressive, your lack of intelligence humors, but at the end of the day, you are what you are, a good blog writer. Your articles draw attention, people read them and respond, you do your job, but your still an idiot.
Hey Jeff, "conservative judism" is dead already, isn't ? I wonder, in conservative, and reform judism, what allows an individual to enter? Just knocks on the door of the church and says "i'm conservative jew give me a shawl"? curious....
Chimales
First be observant, then you can talk. It's WORK to be Torah observant.It's rewarding. It's not like a fraternity hazing. But, you haven't done the WORK. They HAVE. They can be criticized by anybody as business people, but they cannot be criticized as JEWS, except by other Jews, who have also done the HARD WORK of observance
What's funny here is that we are being told that we have no right to critize a fellow Jew because they are working so hard to observe Torah that they can't be bothered with, you know, human rights abuses.
Question. Agreed, all of the kashrut minutae, etc ad nauseum are part of Torah... but doesn't observing Torah also include observing the laws regarding the rights of workers, and the whole 'created in the image and likeness' thing? Or was that just the Orthodox that where created that way. At times, I feel that they don't only perceive non-Jews as non-human, but also non-charedi as somewhat 'less than'.
What was that bit from Hilell? About loving your neighbor as yourself and the rest being commentary.
BTW. 'Born again Orthodox'????!!!!! WTF? Jew and Born Again shouldn't ever be used in the same phrase. Uff... that's just wrong. Like Kosher Bacon.
Jeff Eyges
Hey Jeff, "conservative judism" is dead already, isn't ? I wonder, in
conservative, and reform judism, what allows an individual to enter?
Just knocks on the door of the church and says "i'm conservative jew
give me a shawl"? curious....
Yes, well - I'm sure you know all about it.
I'm Orthodox, but that doesn't mean that all the negative stories
coming out of the Orthodox world are not upsetting to me too. The
charedim are getting it wrong and exploiting Torah. They are
fundamentalists, plain and simple.
Anonymous,
The problem is that the Hareidim are Orthodoxy now. The Modern Orthodox fell asleep on watch, the Hareidim moved in and began breeding like rabbits, and they now own the franchise.
Anonymous
What do you mean "that bit from Hillel"? Can you cite where it comes from in Talmud? Where did Hillel himself get it, in Torah? If you can't, how is it going to be remembered? As a Hallmark greeting card jingle, about how it's nice to be nice, and can't we all get along? Give peace a chance? It's not a Beatles lyric. Do you think serious thought endures if nobody studies it in an intense, concentrated way? Do you think Hillel will be remembered longer than the Beatles, who thought all you need is love? If so, won't that be because of time and energy invested in textual study and discussion?
"At time I feel" is not an argument. It isn't a fact either. What do you mean, "ad nauseum"? Daily, even hourly, engagement with the idea of an involved Creator is what created a Hillel in the first place. He wasn't a greeting card jingle writer or a Beatle. He was a Torah scholar. He would have liked you to be one. He started at age 40... what a guy.
Anonymous
"The problem is that the Hareidim are Orthodoxy now. The Modern Orthodox fell asleep on watch, the Hareidim moved in and began breeding like rabbits, and they now own the franchise."
I know and it is scary! Modern Orthodox types (myself included) are too busy getting college degrees, real jobs, and interacting with the world. There is just no time to crank out the kids the way the charedim do it. It pisses me off to no end. But do I throw the baby out with the bathwater and stop following the Torah because I don't like the way the chardei live? That wouldn't do much good. All I can do is raise my kids not to be like them and hope for the best. Quality not quantity?
chimales