Spokesman For "The Jewish People" Calls For An End To Jewish Morality

What are Kissinger and Foxman's role in this organization, exactly?

Good question. I got the image from the JPPPI's "About Us" page, which featured them in a larger image, but the page did not specify when the picture was taken and in what context. Dennis Ross and Yehezkel Dror are in it too, and a guy who looks like Rudy Giuliani.

how can you not appreciate an organization that has the word "pee-pee" in its name?  At least they make me giggle.

But the Torah actually does a pretty good job of defining morality and I believe it would have a very accurate word for the present state of politics in the Middle East. I think that word would be 'war'. If the moral brick road starts there, at that word, war, just follow the moral brick road.

Eli just established himself as a spokesman for Jews - right here, right now!

Stage Two: Espouse ideology that the vast majority of Jews would consider to be out-of-touch or morally execrable.

Who are you calling "we", white man? The no-holds barred survival of Jews, Israel, or any combination of the two may be "out of touch" or "morally execrable" to a certain class of American middle to upper class Jew, but for a large number of, shall we say, more Jewish Jews? The emphasis on doing right by us first, as well as viewing every problem through how it helps or hurts us, is halachically tested and, for the most part, approved.

I won't argue as to whether this approach is right, wrong, helpful or hurtful, but I would argue that it would be extremely difficult to determine that a "majority" of Jews find this approach "out-of-touch or morally execrable". 

"The emphasis on doing right by us first, as well as viewing every
problem through how it helps or hurts us, is halachically tested and,
for the most part, approved."

Is that so? Great, then we're fucked. What's the point of being Jewish if it's not to (cliche warning) "repair the world"? If you want to live in a Jewish Jew bubble, fine. I'm a little more concerned with the human race.

I think the quote you referred to means that we can't very well repair the world if we're dead.  So...not fucked.  Just stay alive and get to work.

I find it repugnant that a Jew would be so patently amoral as to advocate for ruthless ethnocentrism without regard to the rights of anyone else.

The true enemy of all minorities is ethnocentrism itself.

I think the big moral split in the Jewish community is what lesson we take from Jewish oppression, culminating in the Holocaust:

Jews must stick together and defend themselves because no one else will.

Or

Bigotry, hatred, ethnocentrism, and disregard for minority rights are the heights of evil, cruelty, and immorality and we as Jews should always be the first to defend the weak.

Great comment, Muzz. It will be lost on people like naftali but it's near impossible to reason with those types. Their lock-step tribalism is sickening and will ultimately be their end but they can't see it.

This is simple, how can you fight bigotry, hatred, and ethnocentrism if you are...dead?  You figure that one out.

Also, while you're figuring, figure out how to read.  I talked about the quote that you somehow didn't understand--since that halachically tested notion of 'choose life' seems to be problematic for you.

Or, do this, to get me out of my lock step tribalism.  Explain to me why 'choosing life' is a flawed concept. 

"In short, the imperatives of existence should be given priority over other concerns — however important they may be — including liberal and humanitarian values, support for human rights and democratization."

This is a principle that I imagine would be endorsed by all but the most radical Christian or Quaker. Who else seriously offers up the continued existence of his people at the altar of liberal humanism?

As Eli suggests (and Dror acknowledges), though, the devil's in the details. What constitutes the sort of threat that Dror's program requires? A lead pipe projectile thudding to earth in Sderot? The largely powerless Ahmadinejad squeezing out foolish opinions? Norman Finkelstein giving a talk at your local high school?

Sadly, right-wing Zionists have an unfortunate history of enlisting unwarranted scenarios of Armageddon to further their mischief (see Foxman, Abe et al).

So as a disembodied principle, Dror's idea may be unobjectionable, but only in its realization does it become sensible. And Dror's leaving the particulars out of the picture. I'd be very wary of writing this guy a blank check.    

By the way, the fact that Dennis Ross is Board Chairman of this slapstick bunch of yahoos should drive the final nail into the coffin of his credibility regarding Camp David or any other Palestine/Israel matter.

Finally, Eli gets Quote of the Week for taking Einstein's cancer metaphor and running all the way to "chemotherapy" with it. 

You're hopeless. With YOUR course of action and logic, you will be dead sooner rather than later. Good riddance. Open-minded Jews like myself don't need you and you are only harming our cause. I shan't waste my precious energy on the likes of you

Yep, that's where halacha comes in--because that's where the details are discussed, not ending in clear cut answers, but mostly giving us a process to keep working out the details.  There are some clear situations that become the bottom line, do not cross here or else you will not be choosing life, but mostly, it's a process.

Rockets in Sderot, that explode and spray shrapnel, pretty clear.  Finkelstein, words.  Mahmoud, words or rockets?  Not clear.

And another reason for the Talmud, no Jew gets a blank check. 

"they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power.” Dror offers evidence that sixty years into what some people call "the Jewish return to sovereignty," it might be time for some chemotherapy. ... Guess the Holocaust wasnt enough. It is always interesting how some Jews feel ennobled by others suffering

"The no-holds barred survival of Jews, Israel, or any combination of the two may be "out of touch" or "morally execrable" ..."

Don’t twist it. It’s not the survival that is morally execrable but the ideology – in this case, ideology that insists Jews be amoral or even immoral even in areas that have only a tangential relationship to Israel’s military superiority over Arabs. You might find it pleasing, and within the range of your own ideology, to insist that what I am saying is that Jewish survival is morally execrable. But that's a leap of logic found nowhere in what I wrote.

"...to a certain class of American middle to upper class Jew..."

Oh, come on. Have you painted me with a Vanilla Soy Frappuccino yet? Does that help the smugness, too?

"...but for a large number of, shall we say, more Jewish Jews?"

Please do me a favor and define "more Jewish Jews." Then tell me, what percentage of Jews fit your definition of "more Jewish Jews"? Assuming this classification includes Jews who are observant at some level, and who filter most or all of their own experiences and everything they see and read and hear through an exclusively Jewish lens (is that what you meant?), then can we agree that this group comprises less than 20 percent of Jews today? 25 percent? That is a minority, RW.

But back to the main point: Dror is speaking for a minority of Jews. Just as a majority of Jews (maybe nobody you know, but a majority still) disapproves of George W. Bush, a majority of Jews would find Dror's viewpoints to be out of touch or morally execrable. Whether the Jewish majority has anything to do with the organizations that claim to represent them is the main issue here, and the main problem.

You know, reading your words, that's the first thing that comes to my mind, how kind and open minded you are, how anything morally execrable would never enter your mind.  Why, you sound so pure and peaceful I'm surprised that you don't have violets and clover, flowers of a gentle pasture,  growing out of your head rather than hair.  And little birdies sing to you and help you make pies.

That just pops right out of the page.  Your cause sounds wonderful, and I'll bet you go about it in the most peaceful and loving way imaginable.  Boy, I can't wait until people like you become the majority in the world.  It'll be just like a paradise. 

I find it repugnant that a Jew would be so patently amoral as to
advocate for ruthless ethnocentrism without regard to the rights of
anyone else.

While Judaism is both ethnocentric (to a point) and universal (again, to a point), it is not, and should never be confused with, American style progressive humanism. Judaism looks inward as often, if not more often, than it looks outwards. We're obligated to repair the world, true, but we're also supposed to be working triple overtime to satisfy the rest of our arrangement with the almighty, and wouldn't you know it?, a whole lot of that boils down to how we behave as tribal unit.

do you think Dror has ever read 'How to Win Wriends and Influence People?' Perhaps Olmert and his buddy, George Bush should also pick up a copy. If anything, the safest route to the future for Israel is not thru belligerence or antagonism, disguised as 'self-protection', but through honest attempts at sincere friendship with its neighbors. Doing Washington's bidding, such as trying to win Syria over in the effort to corner Iran, is just setting it up for more negative reactions from its neighbors. Does anyone really think that this game is a new one? The game and its goals are obvious, and Israel, by participating, is pushing the envelope on its own security. How far do they think they can push their neighbors without getting a reaction?  It's sheer folly to think otherwise.

"Of course people will not voluntarily make that accommodation. At this
point the right of self-preservation comes into effect. And when
attempts to settle the difficulty in an amicable way are rejected the
clenched hand must take by force that which was refused to the open
hand of friendship. If in the past our ancestors had based their
political decisions on similar pacifist nonsense as our present
generation does, we should not possess more than one-third of the
national territory that we possess to-day and probably there would be
no German nation to worry about its future in Europe"

Might Be Time To Check Your Premises

You know, it doesn't matter if you run around preaching 'peace', if at the same time you are poking your finger into people's eyes, since actions always speak louder than words. The essence of the problem is that Israel is forcing the Palestinians and others to pay for the Holocaust that was committed by Germany, a very Christian country. At some point, you have to stop asking a non-involved party for payment, because you've got a serious internal psychological issue that needs to be resolved. Armed to the teeth, no one will dare to threated Israel, so its self-preservation is assured. But keep in mind, after a two thousand year absence, to show up and demand that everyone accomodate you is a bit absurd...the natives, who you've chosen to ignore, see you as illegitimate squatters. Everyone needs to face the fact that Israel was founded by terror and terrorists, and yes, it succeeded because of the guilt feelings harbored by those in the West. Most likely, they could have stopped the Holocaust, but chose not to....as in, Bush's grandfather did business w/ the Nazis and became wealthy as a result, yet it is the Palestinians who are made to pay the price over and over again. Do you truly understand the word 'justice' or are you just way too narcissistic for that?  If you're really interested in Israel's self-preservation, making friends, not enemies, of your neighbors is the best way. Hitching your wagon to the US, as your one and only friend in the world, is also a bit short-sighted. If something happens to that wagon, your goose is cooked.

  

Ethical monotheism. *Ethical.* Otherwise, no better than worship of Aton, the disk of the sun. Who never once made a covenant.

One of the commenters of the Dror article had this to say:

"I agree with the author. We've been persecuted for time immemorial, and even today, our existence is in peril. Israel is an important country, and the Jewish people are an important people. We have contributed in immeasurable ways to this world. We need powerful allies like Turkey if we are going to survive and if Israel is going to survive, and if that means ignoring an inconsequential people like the Armenians, then so be it. Their genocide happened a long time ago anyway, and talking about it isn't going to change that."

I thought it perfectly paraphrased what Dror had written.  If today's Jews decide to agree with this sentiment, a people whose immediate ancestors suffered a Holocaust and were almost erased from this Earth, then what hope do we have on this Earth that humans will some day achieve Humanity? 

Look at the commenters to the Dror article; the Stormfronters are having a field day with this article, because it validates their argument that Jews only care about Jews, and nobody else.

The argument that "Jews only care about Jews, and nobody else" might sound a bit harsh, but the fact that any Jews, let alone prominent Jewish organizations, speak out against recognition or even acknowledgement of the Armenian genocide, the one that created the blueprint for Hitler, speaks volumes and needs no additional words.  

Anon, that was not my argument, but it becomes difficult to argue against the "Jews only care about Jews" argument in the comments section of the Dror article, especially when you have far too many Jews commenting in agreement with what he has written in that article.